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Aug 13, 2024, 3:08 am
#16
oneeye4u76
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: FL
Programs: AA, BA, HH
Posts: 176
Is it the open jaw? Is an unwritten rule the distance travelled between the open jaw pairs shall not be longer than the shortest flight?
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Aug 13, 2024, 3:18 am
#17
etiene
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: AMS
Programs: BAEC Silver, Flying Blue Gold, TK M&S Nobody
Posts: 2,668
Originally Posted by oneeye4u76
Is it the open jaw? Is an unwritten rule the distance travelled between the open jaw pairs shall not be longer than the shortest flight?
There is some kind of rule, but I don't think you have it quite right. For instance, I don't think you're prohibited from doing, say MAN-LHR-ORD//CVG-LHR-MAN. I'm not sure if that's because what's considered is the overall journey [so MAN-ORD vs ORD-CVG vs CVG-MAN] or if only the long-hauls are counted, or something else.
I also don't know if it's applied to multi-carrier rewards beyond the "there and back" thing.
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Aug 13, 2024, 3:33 am
#18
DeathSlam
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: UK
Programs: BAEC electrum
Posts: 2,532
Originally Posted by oneeye4u76
Is it the open jaw? Is an unwritten rule the distance travelled between the open jaw pairs shall not be longer than the shortest flight?
There is a written rule, and it's that the distance between the open jaw points must be shorter than the shortest of the longest leg of the outward or the longest leg of the return journey (otherwise I would never be able to open jaw more than the distance between Manchester and London).
It must also be within the same 'zone'.
I suspect it is this last bit that has caught OP out here.
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Aug 13, 2024, 3:40 am
#19
oneeye4u76
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: FL
Programs: AA, BA, HH
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by etiene
There is some kind of rule, but I don't think you have it quite right. For instance, I don't think you're prohibited from doing, say MAN-LHR-ORD//CVG-LHR-MAN. I'm not sure if that's because what's considered is the overall journey [so MAN-ORD vs ORD-CVG vs CVG-MAN] or if only the long-hauls are counted, or something else.
I also don't know if it's applied to multi-carrier rewards beyond the "there and back" thing.
100% agree your routing would be valid and the "there and back" may be the issue. That then begs the question when does that kick in. I would ask of the OP unless I'm doing it wrong why not fly into Australia from HKG and try again? A direct flight to SYD from HKG keeps you under 20k miles flown. I assume availability but did you try other airports?
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Aug 13, 2024, 3:54 am
#20
DeathSlam
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: UK
Programs: BAEC electrum
Posts: 2,532
Originally Posted by oneeye4u76
100% agree your routing would be valid and the "there and back" may be the issue. That then begs the question when does that kick in. I would ask of the OP unless I'm doing it wrong why not fly into Australia from HKG and try again? A direct flight to SYD from HKG keeps you under 20k miles flown. I assume availability but did you try other airports?
Yes, but if you add a flight from HKG to SYD you are no longer taking the most direct route to either Sydney or Hong Kong. But it would be worth a go. I would put Sydney as the destination and say that the odd route out is because that's where J reward availability is.
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Aug 13, 2024, 4:44 am
#21
etiene
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: AMS
Programs: BAEC Silver, Flying Blue Gold, TK M&S Nobody
Posts: 2,668
Originally Posted by DeathSlam
Yes, but if you add a flight from HKG to SYD you are no longer taking the most direct route to either Sydney or Hong Kong. But it would be worth a go. I would put Sydney as the destination and say that the odd route out is because that's where J reward availability is.
I think your point about same zone might be right here. Closing the loop is definitely worth a try, even with a stopover - that's not unlike our trip last year [booked the year before] where we had three days in Japan on the way to NZ from Europe.
The "most direct route" thing really doesn't hold much water when one must also work with partner availability. As I pointed out in another thread, it could mean that the only acceptable route from PER to LHR is the QF direct flight - even if that's never available from QF.
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Aug 13, 2024, 4:46 am
#22
DeathSlam
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: UK
Programs: BAEC electrum
Posts: 2,532
Also 'closing the loop' doesn't increase the total miles above 20k so it's the same cost as the open jaw.
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Aug 13, 2024, 9:05 am
#23
guv1976
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Not here; there!
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold
Posts: 30,622
Originally Posted by DeathSlam
Also 'closing the loop' doesn't increase the total miles above 20k so it's the same cost as the open jaw.
But closing the loop might be impossible, if one were taking a Hong Kong-Sydney cruise, for example.
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Aug 13, 2024, 9:09 am
#24
DeathSlam
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: UK
Programs: BAEC electrum
Posts: 2,532
Originally Posted by guv1976
But closing the loop might be impossible, if one were taking a Hong Kong-Sydney cruise, for example.
Sure, but OP hasn't been back to provide any more details. So we're just flying kites.
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Aug 13, 2024, 10:00 pm
#25
HarryKUK
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bangkok / London
Programs: BA Gold, AmEx Platinum, AVIS Presidents Club, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,212
Originally Posted by guv1976
But closing the loop might be impossible, if one were taking a Hong Kong-Sydney cruise, for example.
Sometimes closing the loop isnt helpful due to the need to fly coupons in sequence. Weve often booked an open jaw deliberately so that we can be flexible about how we get from A to B and not be at the mercy of BA availability and change fees and so on. The current trip we are on was into SIN and out of HKG for exactly this reason, and weve made our way between the two via Bali and Vietnam on cheaper budget carriers and SQ redemption tickets.
Just to go back to the original question, I do think BA needs to introduce some sort of rules for this as it cant be down to the opinion of individual booking agents. I know sometimes ambiguous rules can benefit the passenger but it can also be very frustrating when neither side knows what they are doing. Being able to book a multi partner ticket should be a key feature of any airline alliance, it shouldnt be this complicated.
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Aug 13, 2024, 11:48 pm
#26
DeathSlam
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: UK
Programs: BAEC electrum
Posts: 2,532
Originally Posted by HarryKUK
I do think BA needs to introduce some sort of rules for this as it can’t be down to the opinion of individual booking agents. I know sometimes ambiguous rules can benefit the passenger.
If they standardise it I can 100% guarantee it will be to the detriment of everyone doing a booking. You can easily book all the flights individually without the multi-partner discount and that would be the easiest way to normalise the rules, just get rid of preferential rates on multi-partner rewards.
So be careful what you wish for. If it was easy to do, lots of people would be using it and BA would then 'enhance' it (again).
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Yesterday, 5:12 pm
#27
zcdx
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
Thanks for the suggestion. I called again today (I was busy previously and did not follow this matter), it turned out my itinery was SFO-HND, and SYD-SFO. No HKG was involved. The fare team might have made a mistake.
Originally Posted by DeathSlam
Yes, I did think that.
The way I think of it is to try to explain to another human being why you are taking the routing you are.
Are you going to Hong Kong? Or are you going to Sydney? It has to be one or the other as these fares are 'there and back again' fares. Alternatively you can do them as a one way, but again you need to have a single destination now, you can't just wander about willy nilly.
Once you have your putative destination fixed, you can then try to find a routing for it that makes sense in terms of mixed carriers.
You *can* have an open jaw, but it needs to be within this context, so I suspect something like coming back from Bangkok rather than HKG might make sense, especially with another stop on the way.
In reality, you might think of the places you want to visit and back construct a tale such as the above and organise your trip around it rather than just selecting all the ideal flights you would like.
That way when you ring up to book it and it gets sent through to the fares team it doesn't trigger their alarm bells and look like someone taking the p.
If you have stops on the way there and on the way back, you might end up with a shorter flight in Y that is still the longest leg, but one you will actually take,
Last edited by zcdx; Yesterday at 6:19 pm
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Yesterday, 5:17 pm
#28
zcdx
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
I WILL take the SYD-SFO economy leg.
The reason that I do not put another segment from HKG-SYD is because I plan to purchase one from Shanghai - Mel, which is less than $200 including tax and fees. I have additional travel plans from HKG-PVG seperately that is not included in this Multi Carrier Award trip (to reduce the complexity).
Originally Posted by etiene
Perhaps OP can be honest with us as to whether they are intending to take the economy leg...?
We've done two of these, both with the longest leg in Y to reduce the cost. However, both of our Y legs were at the beginning and thus couldn't be skipped without losing the rest of the itinerary - which presumably reassures the fares team. I am of the opinion that the "most direct routing" thing remains as clear as mud.
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Yesterday, 5:25 pm
#29
zcdx
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
Let me try today with the following sfo-nrt-hkg-mel-syd-sfo to see if the fare team is happy.
I will report back later.
Isn't the sweet point of BA's multicarrier award taking the longest segment in Y and the remaining as many biz as possible? If BA does not allow this one way, I will not accrue it anymore.
Last edited by zcdx; Yesterday at 5:55 pm
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Yesterday, 5:59 pm
#30
zcdx
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 46
I am reporting back after talking to a second front agent about this route (somehow my booking only has two segments, no HND-HKG flight at all. SOrry for the misinformation in the first post. I removed HND-HKG intentionally to keep the total mileage below 14k miles so that it only cost 60k BA miles for redemption.)
"SFO-HND (Biz),
SYD-SFO (economy)."
The front agent told me this itinery is not eligible "because of the stop-over of the second and third segment".
Obviously, because there is no 3rd segment so this rejection reason does not make sense. The front agent was happy to forward the request back to the fare team again...
This does raise a concern to me, since no published rules are available, what if the fare team makes some mistakes?
Again, I requested "sfo-nrt-hkg-mel-syd-sfo" too (only syd-sfo is economy, others are biz) just to see if the fare team has any trouble with this too.
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